This is take three. i wanted to repost miceal's original question to the first incarnation of this tribe because it generated such wonderful dialog. Then tribe.net ate my post. So for the third time the same question is posed.
How do you push the envelope?
I'll try to answer this again. Most of my boundry pushing is internal. it is about facing my fears, doing things that I think I can't moving past the comfortable into the unfamiliar and frightening aspects of my self. For instance I am afraid of fire which lead to me being set on fire for a public fetish perfomance. Also a huge leap of trust for me. While most of my envelope pushing is not nearly this extreme it all has to do with moving through the superficial and into my core. I deeply belive in self evolution and feel I'm not evolving if I'm clinging to my self.
Anyone else feel me on this one?
How do you push the envelope?
I'll try to answer this again. Most of my boundry pushing is internal. it is about facing my fears, doing things that I think I can't moving past the comfortable into the unfamiliar and frightening aspects of my self. For instance I am afraid of fire which lead to me being set on fire for a public fetish perfomance. Also a huge leap of trust for me. While most of my envelope pushing is not nearly this extreme it all has to do with moving through the superficial and into my core. I deeply belive in self evolution and feel I'm not evolving if I'm clinging to my self.
Anyone else feel me on this one?
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Florida
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Re: I can't belive this
Mon, November 10, 2003 - 4:45 PMThat would be Micheal. Clearly my frustration with posting is begining to show as evidenced by my lack of proof reading and my hurry to get this up. Ahhgg -
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Re: I can't belive this
Mon, November 10, 2003 - 11:39 PMPerhaps patience is an envelope worth exploring for you Kaytlynn *snicker* You know how I feel that everyone might benefit from people waiting ten minutes before hitting send...well, I broke that one here, I waited four hours, sigh. I cheated too, always do; I compose in an application that has spell check then paste into tribe.net form. Why, cause I caint spell! Actually, I have more to say in response to your post, but I am going to be patient, compose it off-line, sleep on it, and revisit it in the morning...
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Re: I can't belive this
Mon, November 10, 2003 - 8:58 PMOOH!, OOH!
I know!....Date a lying, deceitful, uncommunicative asshole! If you can find friends like this, all the better for the pushing!
trix *a little grumpy*
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Re: I can't belive this
Tue, November 11, 2003 - 7:49 AM
Hmm. How do I push the envelope?
Usually, on impulse. I'm a very careful person, for the most part...then I'll be somewhere, and feel an urge, and give in.
A couple of examples:
I'm afraid of heights. Not phobic, but just enough that I don't often willingly go anywhere that includes a chance of falling. So, I passed over a bridge a few weeks back, one about a hundred feet off the ravine below. And hopped up on the stone buttress, spread my arms, and let the wind blow around me.
Or...last year, there was this girl I'd often see at the bar. She just pegged my interest. And I got this urge. So I walked up, and said, "Hi! How're you? We've talked a few times, and at some point, we should talk more, because I've been secretly interested in you for six months, but just decided to tell you." She replies, "I have a boyfriend." And, don't ask me why, but I impulsively replied, "Oh, okay, well, since you used that as a qualifier, I'll assume you're monogamous. Drop me a line when you're done with him."
She did. :^)
Those are good examples of how I push the boundaries...either by doing something to face something I don't like, or by stepping outside of conventional social mores. But it's all usually on a sudden urge.
I think that, if I lacked self-control, I'd be pushing boundaries all over the place, which strikes me as an unwise and probably self-destructive thing. -
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Re: I can't belive this
Tue, November 11, 2003 - 8:18 AM"I think that, if I lacked self-control, I'd be pushing boundaries all over the place, which strikes me as an unwise and probably self-destructive thing."~Ben
It is called "deconstructionism". Very popular method with the chaos magick types to push cognitive evolution, rather than waiting on natural selection. Of course, some control is necessary, or else you do wind up dead.
It is kinda like the scene in "Fight Club", where they Tyler and Jack are in the car, and then they buckle up before Tyler let's the wheel go...yeah, kinda like that.
trix -
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Re: I can't belive this
Tue, November 11, 2003 - 8:25 AM
May wrote:
"It is called "deconstructionism". Very popular method with the chaos magick types to push cognitive evolution, rather than waiting on natural selection. Of course, some control is necessary, or else you do wind up dead."
Or in jail...or beat up...etc., etc.
For me, it is a somewhat mystical process. Allow to explain:
I think this group is misnamed. Boundaries? What boundaries? People spend a lot of time investing emotional energy in boundaries which only exist because they choose to grant them authority.
I had an experience when I was younger...I was on a farm road, near a crossroad with a pair of stoplights. During the day, one of the roads was somewhat busy, so one of the lights lasted a looooong time. At 3am in the morning, nada. Not a car for a mile in any direction.
I watched a car pull up at the long light, and stop. And wait for five minutes. No cars. No cops. No people. But still, the driver waited. Why?
Because it's a stoplight.
I realized, right then, how much people invest in boundaries which have no tangible value.
Every time I push through one of these intangible boundaries, my perspective broadens, and I think I see more of the real world, the skin beneath the clothing the world wears.
Does that make sense? -
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Re: I can't belive this
Tue, November 11, 2003 - 8:44 AM======================================(no effin' space!)
"Or in jail...or beat up...etc., etc." ~Ben
Hmm...so you do have boundries?
Part of your evolution in deconstructionism, is living through reprecussions that could be construed as rather brutal. I have ended up in jail, briefly yet incredibly well timed in order for me to learn from it. Ihave been beaten up too...the point really comes down to the old maxim "If it doesn't kill you it will make you stronger."
trix -
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Re: I can't belive this
Tue, November 11, 2003 - 8:52 AMMay wrote:
"Hmm...so you do have boundries?"
Yes, but they're largely self-defined, as opposed to being externally imposed. See, it seems to me that self-knowledge is key in pushing boundaries...if you don't know yourself, then you're likely to be influenced by forces you can't acknowledge (since you can't see their effect on yourself). Media, culture, etc. etc.
Once I figured out the stoplight, everything else became very, very clear.
May also wrote:
"Part of your evolution in deconstructionism, is living through reprecussions that could be construed as rather brutal. I have ended up in jail, briefly yet incredibly well timed in order for me to learn from it. Ihave been beaten up too...the point really comes down to the old maxim "If it doesn't kill you it will make you stronger.""
I've also been beaten up, been in jail, etc. And yes, it does make you stronger. However, it also has a way of teaching you the price of pushing boundaries. We really ought to define it as "pushing the boundaries of others" since by pushing them, we choose not to acknowledge their solidity.
Push the boundaries society sets, and society hits back. The brutal repercussions have taught me the value of pushing subtly. -
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Re: I can't belive this
Tue, November 11, 2003 - 10:46 AMI would like to mention Ben, that I was in no way implying you were a hypocrite by pointing out that you have boundries. I may have come off like that. It is nice that someone admits they have them! These days it is like telling someone you have some incurable and infectious disease and you get the pity treatment.
I just find it is good to know that you/people generally have some limits. As we discussed, sometimes that is a healthy thing for us. I love that you make it your responsibility to push your limits at the rate with which you feel comfortable and do not let others (media included) draw your lines for you.
trix
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Re: I can't belive this
Tue, November 11, 2003 - 2:35 PMI am so confused here. We choose our boundaries, yet our boundaries are externally imposed? Isn't that a contradiction? -
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Re: I can't belive this
Tue, November 11, 2003 - 3:16 PMWhy yes it is. I think you may be a bit confused here though.
I think what is being said, is there are external forces that perhaps influence people, like the law, media, pressure from partners, family, etc...that attempt to define our boundries for us. What Ben suggests is comparable to what is called cognitive evolution, where you decide and make conscious effort to overcome useless or outmoded philosophies and practices in yourself, through application of awareness and intent within yourself. I think it is about being clear and honest with yourself first and being strong enough to say what you need and who you are and achieving it, despite the contridictions on the outside.
I am sure there is so much more, but I am getting ready for work.
trix -
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Re: I can't belive this
Tue, November 11, 2003 - 3:38 PMThere is some information on cognitive human social evolution here at Principia Cybernetica
pespmc1.vub.ac.be/SOCEVOL.html
I am loving that site!
trix
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Re: I can't belive this
Tue, November 11, 2003 - 3:55 PMThere are external forces that define those boundaries ... and consciously or not we make a choice to abide by them ... which is why I don't understand the 'imposed' part of the equation ... my perspective may be different because I see myself as responsible for everything I do, I accept what I win and what I lose from being different, and don't blame my losses on others ... if I chose to abide by boundaries defined by someone else or not to - that's my choice.
Being born in a different place I was always under the impression that the law of the land and society was 'imposed' on me against my better will, and had the 'outmoded' point of view ... but I've had choice to relocate to many different places, and in fact relocated a few times by realizing some of those choices ... when doing so, I've taken an informed decision to apply by the laws and live in a particular society accepting the positive and the negative ... it doesn't stop me from complaining about the negative, or doing my part to help change things for the better (by my perspective), but it did change my perspective of both my present and my past.
I think many people do make a decision to abide by some set of rules - we may call them 'outmoded', but for those people it's a preference, in their cost/benefit analysis it's just better to conform ... it pays off in other parts of their life ... maybe they don't t get to define the rules, but they got the benefits by agreeing to them.
Early in the rebel stage of my life I would probably look at those rules and think they are 'outmoded' and those people as being ignorant ... that was just being condescending on my part ... now I just accept that some people are better off that way, some people need help to get to a better place (by my definition), and some people are already there.
My 'outmoded' is someone else's 'befitting', and when I make a personal choice to push my boundaries - it is a personal choice. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: I can't belive this
Tue, November 11, 2003 - 4:19 PMWell, we are not in disagreement here. I don't think.
I am talking about natural selection and cognitive evolution. Can you fly? Why not? Are you going to die? Why? Becuase someone told you that is the way it is?
That is extreme, but along the lines of what I am getting at. Those are some huge-ass envelopes, however!
trix -
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Re: I can't belive this
Tue, November 11, 2003 - 4:30 PMYes I can fly. The Wright brothers have taught me that. I can probably get a personal jet-pack on eBay ;-) No, it was not possible decades ago. Though some people have had hope, De Vinci comes to mind.
I'm being a hardass here, but I know that I've gone through phases ... I've been in the 'no choice' phase and I didn't like it ... I moved to a phase where I made choices, but only some, I though my limits are imposed by the outside, not realizing they are coming from within ... not I'm at the phase where I recognize it's all my choice to make ... somehow in my mind 'externally imposed' is linked to that second phase, where I didn't recognize all the choices I could make and didn't recognize it was me who was holding me back.
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Re: I can't belive this
Tue, November 11, 2003 - 4:05 PMNot really so confusing as both statements are correct. There are codified laws and social mores that define boundaries both absolute and 'socially acceptable'. These are imposed from without and may have varying results for pushing the envelope. For instance in Ben's 'red light' example it is a codified boundary that in his instance might have resulted in 'no contest'. Now all codified laws depend on 'getting caught' for there to be repercussions outside of your own sense of well being. (unless you harm others in the process). Social norms are a huge gray area and why 'birds of a feather flock together'. Special interest groups form to provide an environment where the boundary may be extended from the norm. Personal boundaries on the other hand, whether they originate in ones cultural bias, education, karma, or purely from the psyche, are there to be pushed. Ben again, gave a perfect example about his fear of heights. Where does it come from? How rational? (well there IS an element of instinctual self preservation going on there ;) So there are both internal and external, as well as self-generated or externally imposed boundaries.
It has been my experience that we can only really effect change internally and manifest that change through our interactions with others or the world around us. -
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Re: I can't belive this
Tue, November 11, 2003 - 4:21 PMRegarding red lights, we forget that we can choose to live in a country where driving past a red light is no big deal ... since I have that option and choose to turn it down, I do see a choice there ... right now I am thinking that maybe people who don't see that choice confuse imposition with inability to make such choices?
Personally, I know I have fears that come from the inside, just like Ben's fear of heights, I have mine as well ... and I may fear to move away to a country where I can just drive past a red light ... but I personally I'll acknowledge the fear rather than call it an imposition.
And I perfectly agree with your last statement. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: I can't belive this
Wed, November 12, 2003 - 12:41 AMAssaf wrote:
"right now I am thinking that maybe people who don't see that choice confuse imposition with inability to make such choices?"
It's all about self-knowledge. The people who don't see the choice do not, in fact, have it. They don't recognize that impact that the world has on them, and live reactively. The people who -see- that they have a choice are living proactively.
In other words, self-knowledge offers one the power to make a choice. But, since no self-knowledge is total (that I've seen), then we still must acknowledge externally imposed boundaries, since we have no choice in the matter.
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Re: I can't belive this
Wed, November 12, 2003 - 9:40 AM"The people who don't see the choice do not, in fact, have it. They don't recognize that impact that the world has on them, and live reactively."
I absolutely agree with that.
I also agree that self-knowledge is not total, at least I haven't experienced it yet ;-)
But somehow 'imposed' rubs me the wrong way ... it seems to be throwing blame at the other ... I can't buy a sentence like 'we have no choice in the matter' because in fact we do, we have a choice whether or not to expand our self-knowledge, whether or not to push our boundaries ... I chose to, and yes, sometimes I unwillingly abide by externally defined boundaries for lack of self-knowledge.
I know too many people chose not to extend their self-knowledge, and since every action has a result, what happens after that is a result of that decision ... the externally defined boundaries are 'imposed' on them, only because they chose to as a way of life ... whereas the externally defined boundaries play a role in my life only because I've yet to acquire more self-knowledge.
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Re: I can't belive this
Tue, November 11, 2003 - 10:22 AMPrecisely. I would postulate that boundaries do exist whether we choose to acknowledge, examine, or push them. They are a natural result of both the very thought processes that separate us from 'lower' species, and of the physical universe we inhabit. Without boundaries; all would be chaos. So we have a classic model of law -vs- chaos. In the examples you and May have suggested, the result of pushing a boundary is a 'push back' from the other side, in this case law. These might be codified laws such as getting a moving violation from running the red light, or a punch in the nose from violating social mores. In either case a 'boundary' has been defined or discovered and a consequence experienced. Cause; effect.
It was suggested earlier that we focus on personal boundaries in this forum so that it not degenerate into questions of social morality, instances of violating codified law or social mores. I am personally neutral on this matter, but recognize its value to maintain an open dialog. This leaves us with 'personal boundaries', which you suggest is a mystical process; I couldn't agree more. It is a least a process by which we seek to advance ourselves, grow, and continue to evolve. By choosing not to engage in a discussion of 'general' ethics but 'personal' ethics we focus on this inner search for meaning in our own lives and hopefully help each other along the way.
Or as you succinctly put: "Every time I push through one of these intangible boundaries, my perspective broadens, and I think I see more of the real world, the skin beneath the clothing the world wears."
Makes perfect sense to me. I enjoy the sense of shared experience I get when I push the envelope in this forum as well. -
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Re: I can't belive this
Tue, November 11, 2003 - 10:30 AMThe two men I most often agree with have spoken. No suprise then that I agree.
Ben, that was beautifuly put.
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Re: I can't belive this
Wed, November 12, 2003 - 10:48 AMI don't consider breaking laws to be "pushing the envelope" (in most cases). One may be breaking a boundary, but it's easy (in most cases). So a person runs a red light? BFD.
Pushing the envelope for me means challenging our personal boundaries. It's easy to criticize society or other people, it's all talk. I do appreciate critical discussion, analyzing and debating what's going on in the world, but that is not the same as action, walking the talk. "general" ethics are theoretical, "personal" ethics are what we actually do. For this group, I was hoping we'd focus on personal action. Tell me what you do, not just what you think.
Of course, our own actions have consequences, especially if we're pushing the envelope of others' expectations, and it's good to talk about that too.
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Re: I can't belive this
Wed, November 12, 2003 - 11:57 AMMika sez: "For this group, I was hoping we'd focus on personal action. Tell me what you do, not just what you think."
yes, that was why we created this the first time around and what I hope we can nourish in this tribe. Exploring our own hows/whys/whens and sharing how we grow from it or to get feedback on how we might be blocked even. like I said in another thread, just sharing some of this stuff in a public forum pushes one of my envelopes and I feel I am better for it. -
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Re: I can't belive this
Wed, November 12, 2003 - 1:13 PMWe've started this thread on breaking personal boundaries, and talked a bit about breaking other boundaries ... I think at some point we're all compelled to break other (non-personal) boundaries because we feel boundaries are imposed on us, forced down our throat ... I know that, when I realized there was no imposition, that there was no need to break any boundaries but my personal boundaries, that was in itself an act of breaking one of my personal boundaries. -
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Re: I can't belive this
Fri, January 9, 2004 - 7:31 AMI'd be breaking a personal boundary if i got back inside the envelope. I live outside of it. I can't help it. Quite a burden actually.
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Re: I can't belive this
Wed, February 18, 2004 - 2:51 PMYes, Assaf,
The realization that there is no imposition to break a personal boundary is unto itself an act of breaking a boundary.
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